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Talk:Ammunition
Crystal Song, or other moderators, please add the damage per bullet next to the ammunition. Thank you! :Some weapons do different damage per shot even though they share the same ammunition type though, unless the listings are wrong. For example, the Uzi does 2.5 while most other weapons using the 9mm Handgun Ammo are listed at 3 damage per shot. --DeadWildFire 13:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC) ::Damage can vary depending on the gun used, sometimes. For that reason, it might not be such a good idea to put the damage values here. Anyway, if you wanted to know the damage, simply visit the page about the gun that's going to be used to fire the bullet. ::Crystal Song (talk) 23:35, April 12, 2010 (UTC) Update Location Need to update the location of where the ammo can be found on the 3D maps. Note : This is Spring Heeled Jack ( DF Name ) , i looted 12 gauge just ONE block away from FP ( South ) ... i looted only twice , the first loot was like bandages . Then the next loot right after that was 12g .... i dont know if this is a looting error or something ( next time i went on a loot trip , i looted it in the 2nd or 3rd block ) . Just saying . Looting 207 12g just 1 block south , in the 2nd loot isn't natural for a Non-GM and this is the first time looting something . ( the best 1 block away was a Chester 1300 ) . :I've noticed this too. I found 12 gauge one up from Fort Pastor twice, and 9mm rifle one up once, as well as one down. Also, when doing the mission Betsy is Broken, I found a Cowboy Hat, Exterminator Helmet and two Nerotonin 8B (all red/black zone loots for non-GMs).--Lady Blue (Talk) ( ) 12:21, March 23, 2013 (UTC) :SHJ back again ... wait let me make this clear . You looted N-8b WHERE ? In the red zone or black zone ? Cause looting N-8B is possible ONLY in black zone , and if its a red zone ( there are no in-betweens ) then its definitely a bug . ::I found them in the bottom right block of the highlighted area on this map. It's orange zone because I saw no long arms or rumblers, and hardly any tendrils. I start finding Nerotonin 8B when I reach the red zone (not a GM). http://deadfrontier.wikia.com/wiki/File:Betsy_is_broken.jpg --Lady Blue (Talk) ( ) 14:04, March 24, 2013 (UTC) :::I just found dried truffles in the orange zone. 4 down, right all the way. Same just happened with a whiskey, .55 handgun ammo and $300.--Lady Blue (Talk) ( ) 16:28, March 24, 2013 (UTC) :::SHJ back . Hmm , certainly a problem . Though i dont mind if its not fixed :P ::::True. I like being able to find big money ammunition, food and meds without even having to go to the red and black zone all the time. Still want to find that M4 or Exterminator Reactive XT, though; that's what keeps me going to the black zone.---Lady Blue (Talk) ( ) 17:20, March 24, 2013 (UTC) ::::SHJ back ( last time ) : We're using up too much space , lets end this . And yes - looting a chester 1300 right in the next block along with 207 12g is quite nice :) ::::Oh btw , this time .. i looted red wine . In a orange area - its not possible for a non-GM to loot a red wine in a orange area... only in red or black . However it was 7 blocks away from FP. ::::~ ''Spring Heeled Jack , leader of the Shadow-Lords and slayer of the Black Titan '''and all '''Special Bosses ( Except the Slenderman , i didn't survive to kill him )'' ::::HEY !!! Stop editing the Mini-Map -.- The " Locations of Interest " i added are useful because people wont have to search the map co-ordinates of the mision area ( single area ) then search it on the map ... they can just click on the hyperlinked-mission . ::::I know this isn't wrong.... it'll help peeps a lot , hell - it helped ME . People need to know where the fences are ( or in case of Where The Hell Is He ? ) or the missing person. :::::There's already a section similiar to this that you can add the information to (the list of missions already added). Plus, the article about missions is where mission walkthroughs should be added. Sorry about not explaining more; only so much can be put in the edit summary.---Lady Blue (Talk) ( ) 19:32, March 26, 2013 (UTC) Changing the 7.5mm section quoting the 7.5mm section: Rifles using 7.5mm do not use the fragmenting round, as they cannot fire the bullet fast enough for it to reach fragmentation velocity. However, automatic firearms such as the AK-47 and M60 and most 7.5mm sniper rifles are able to use the fragmenting 7.5mm round I understand this is a game, and that the majority of the information here is for entertainment value more than anything else, but the above statement is full of holes. Rifles generally have longer barrels than assault rifles, which allows the gases produced by the combustion of the powder more time to act upon the bullet, hence, longer barrel = higher velocity. There's no sense in misinformation. I'm going to change the entry to provide a valid reason for the use of non-fragmenting rounds in rifles, and also to somehow validate the fact that the AK hits harder than most rifles despite using a smaller cartridge and having a shorter barrel. edit: Also fixing the reference to 7.62x54, this is the Russian Nagant round, widely obsolete, not the NATO round (7.62x51). Oddly enough, the actual 7.5mm round is based on the 54. edit: While scrolling through the rest of the ammo, I found a number of innacuracies in most of the handgun calibers, mostly historical or technical. Also fixed some spelling errors. DrDillinger (talk) 04:14, March 27, 2013 (UTC) @DrDillinger I didn't do the actual research-- I just edited the descriptions for content. Personally, I do agree with you-- there were several details that didn't really sound accurate to me, but due to several complex circumstances, I didn't want to come off as excessively critical by pointing these out to the person who did the original research. Just a few quick things though: - From my own knowledge of the physics involved in firing various projectiles from different types of guns, rifles generally have more power in each shot than pistols. That's the reason why I said that the .50 round is capable of matching low-caliber rifles in terms of raw power-- because the next step up from the strongest available handguns is (I'm assuming) low or lower-medium power rifles. Don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong on this note-- my knowledge of firearms IRL is relatively modest, so I might be incorrect about this. - The word "Anti-Materi'e'''l" is spelled with an "e", not an "a". I know it sounds incorrect, but (according to Wikipedia) apparently the "materi'e'l" spelling is used to refer to supplies and equipment specified for use in military (and commercial) supply chain management (i.e. the managing of all the parties involved in manufacturing something-- the party that retrieves the raw material (regular spelling here LOL), the one that processes it, the one that turns it into the final product, etc.). This spelling is used in the term "Anti-Materiel" as well. To quote the Wikipedia article on Anti-Materiel rifles: "An '''anti-materiel rifle' (AM) is a rifle that is designed for use against military equipment (materiel) rather than against other combatants ("anti-personnel"). The offensive use of anti-materiel rifles or Special Application Sniper Rifles (SASR) is termed Hard Target Interdiction (HTI) by the United States military.[1] " - As far as I know, the 10-gauge shotgun shell the heavy grenade, and (possibly) the 14mm rifle round are all custom (i.e. not real-life) ammunition calibers, and as such my researcher and I wrote their descriptions to fit their alleged power. Please don't f**k with them (pardon my french, XD). ShadowMage ~ DF Wiki Admin & semi-1337 SWAGmaster (talk) 21:07, March 28, 2013 (UTC) @Everyone : I was the one who edited this , and i've done my research . So i know what is used ( white phosphorus in grenades etc ) , and i dont want someone putting something else ( nitromaline and RDX and something else ) . And there were a few grammatical errors ( Fire a shot into the crowd . By the time the ... { it should be .. Fire a shot into the crowd AND by the time .. }) Plz do not change anything , i've done my research ( DF wiki helped ) and i dont want anyone changing anything and putting some nonsense ( Heavy Grenades , over Mach 8 ? Lol ... even the black titan will be dead in a few hits ... mach 8 is super fast ... 8 times the speed of sound ! You aren't firing a grenade , its like your shooting a nuclear bomb ! ) . So i've said it - I know some of you have experience and all , but plz the ammo descriptions are fine as it is . And dont flame me , im just telling the facts . But c'mon , this is a Game Wiki ... not a place where research is being done on bullets ( so if the 7.5 framenting thing is incorrect .. LET IT BE . How else to explain why the stronger rifles do more dmg ? ) ~ Shadow Master Titanus To address the issue of multiple recent changes While I partially agree with Shadow Master Titanus (and I would appreciate it if you would hear him out, b/c he put a lot of effort into those descriptions-- he was responsible for the ammo page even having descriptions added to it in the first place, and I appreciate the work he's done), I feel I should clarify several things. First off, Griever, I realize you've clearly got extensive knowledge of firearms and ammunition, but I've been taking chemistry and organic chemistry for several years now, and I know my chemicals-- including explosive compounds. Nitromannitol doesn't need a fuse to detonate. I'm sure you already know this, but the reason why nitroglycerine is always shipped in clay is because it's extremely unstable-- even a mild shock can cause it to explode, and in the absence of stabilizer compounds/substances like clay, it decomposes into even more unstable compounds. That being said, I should also point out that nitromannitol is even more sensitive-- and unstable-- than nitroglycerine. So a fuze wouldn't even be necessary--when a nitromannitol-coated lead ball strikes its target, the shock of impact alone would be more than enough to detonate the explosive. If you read the description I co-created with Shadow Master Titanus, you'd know that I described the lead shot of the shells as being coated in a mixture of nitromannitol AND a stabilizer compound that rapidly disintegrates when exposed to air. In this case, I'm applying the same premise as the one used with the Nerotonin-2 compound-- the stabilizer compound in question is a fictitious substance that decomposes through oxidation at a rate that is physically impossible for any real-life chemical compound. It supposedly is fully disintegrated through oxidization within less than a millisecond-- a feat which (to my knowledge) is, as stated, impossible for any real chemical compound that reacts with oxygen. So once a 10-gauge shell is fired, the stabilizer compound keeping the nitromannitol from prematurely exploding is completely gone by the time the shot reaches a target and impacts it-- meaning the nitromannitol is completely exposed to any physical shock that the lead shot receives. Furthermore, nitromannitol is the most brisant of any known explosive. Brisance is the shattering capability of an explosive (i.e. its capacity to create shrapnel when detonated in or around a material that can be fragmented). This means that when the nitromannitol-coated 10-gauge pellets strike a target, the brisance of the nitromannitol basically turns each pellet into a miniature frag grenade, splitting them into even smaller pieces of shrapnel traveling at possibly even higher speeds than the pellets were traveling prior to striking a target (Net velocity = Initial velocity + Any induced positive or negative change in velocity). So, in short: 1) 10-gauge shell is filled with lead pellets that are covered in nitromannitol suspended in a fictitious stabilizer compound 2) 10-gauge shell is fired, releasing the pellets and exposing them to the air 3) The aforementioned stabilizer compound disintegrates thru oxidation within less than a millisecond, exposing the unstable nitromannitol coating on each pellet 4) Upon striking a target (such as a zombie), the physical shock resulting from each pellet's contact with the zombie causes the nitromannitol to detonate, due to its high sensitivity (and again, it is even more sensitive than nitroglycerine) 5) The detonation of the highly brisant nitromannitol shatters the pellets, causing them to form even smaller (but more numerous) pieces of shrapnel 6) ???? 7) PROFIT!!! EPIC CARNAGE!!! However, I do realize your logic in removing that info-- even if a stabilizer compound were to disintegrate, there would still be no way that the nitromannitol could simply detonate in midair (as I had suggested with the original description), where there would be nothing to impart a physical shock to it. To remedy that, I've modified the description to specify that the lead shot shatters into smaller pieces of shrapnel upon contact with a target-- the logical result of this would be that the lead shot pieces would basically explode inside of a zombie once they struck it and embedded in its flesh. This actually makes the last line of the description make more sense-- "the 10-gauge will literally blow a zombie to pieces". This would be partially accurate-- if a sufficient number of shot pellets became embedded in an infected, the detonation of that many pellets would potentially cause sufficient damage to the organs and soft tissues to shred and possibly tear loose large pieces of their body. Then there's the matter of 10-gauge itself being a real shotgun gauge. You are right, it is a shotgun gauge that is used in real life. However, my own research has told me that it's also uncommon-- it's mostly used in the UK for, as you said, waterfowl hunting. So logic would lead me to assume that it probably wouldn't be very commonplace in Fairview (based on the overal layout of the city of Fairview, it doesn't strike me as being the kind of city where many people --if any at all--would've gone waterfowl hunting before the outbreak). To that end, I would think that Fairview's engineers would resort to making their own custom version of the 10-gauge shell. One other thing I need to specify here is the reason for my undoing the changes that were made to the description for the 9mm rifle bullet. There were several variants of the real-life 9x39mm Russian rifle bullet that were developed, but the SP-6 variant is pretty much the most likely variant that the game's 9mm rifle bullet is meant to emulate. The drawbacks/disadvantages of the other variants are explained thus: - The SP-5 was a conventional lead bullet developed for accuracy, and the SP-5UZ was an SP-5 variant with an increased charge that was particularly intended for factory-specific strength testing of the weapons meant to use the SP-5. However, neither of these variants has explicit confirmation or denial of their exact penetrative ability. - The SP-6UCh was a variant strictly meant for training purposes, so it obviously wouldn't be practical for use in combat. - The PAB-9 was intended to be a less-expensive alternative to the costly SP-6 variant, using a stamped steel core instead of a machined one. Unfortunately, the use of stamped steel cores also severely impaired its performance--so much so that it became unusable and (as of 2011) was prohibited for use. - The BP variant was designed as an armor piercing round, but no other information has been specified for it-- plus, the SP-6 was also technically classified as an AP round, and it had far more specifications provided. The importance of all this is that the SP-6 round was specifically described as being capable of piercing up to 10mm of solid steel while still retaining enough power to "neutralize a soft target behind it". Given that we're talking about a sub-sonic round, I feel like this detail should be included to give an accurate depiction of the bullet's power. THE LAST THING I NEED TO ADDRESS: WHY THE F**K AM I BEING SO ADAMANT ABOUT ALL THIS?? Honestly, it's primarily to avoid a drama-fest. I'm going to just state this openly: Shadow Master Titanus is, shall we say, extremely eager to contribute to the Wiki. I tasked him with researching and creating descriptions for the ammunition types currently in the game for this page, because not only did this give him a way to contribute, but it also resolved the nagging irritation I'd been feeling every time I looked at the Ammo page and saw its marked lack of any real descriptions. Shadow Master Titanus seriously did his homework on these descriptions, guys. Sure, he might have made a few inaccuracies here and there, but for the most part, these descriptions of his were very well-done. How do you guys think he feels when he subsequently goes onto the page and sees that people have edited and corrected the living sh*t out of practically half his work? While I do support trying to make info on the wiki as accurate as possible, you could've at least done the editing in bits and pieces over a period of time, instead of just redoing the whole thing in one sitting... I'm not angry, I'm just making an observation. ShadowMage ~ DF Wiki Admin & semi-1337 SWAGmaster (talk) 18:26, April 21, 2013 (UTC) @ShadowMage : Thank you very much , i am eager :) Listen - i know some things have to be realistic ( nitro-thingies and all ) but c'mon this is a GAME .... why not have in-accuracies ? I know rifles HAVE to be stronger than pistols ... yet some pistols can beat the crap out of a rifle . This is a game , not a site for soldiers who want to know which gun is better etc :) So to explain things better , i ''deliberately ''added mis-info . ( e.g : Guns like M60 or stronger rifles use the fragmenting 7.5mm round , which is why they do more dmg per hit ) . I understand some peeps have knowledge in this stuff ( i dont , i just researched online ) but plz do not add some stuff which is accurate ( guns can use either fragmenting rounds or normal rounds etc ) but this is just a game wiki ... what about N-2 ? Thats so fake , why aren't your removing it ? Full of ' in-accuracies ' Anyways , my point is ; i realize im making mistakes ( though im doing it purposely ) but im putting mistakes in to EXPLAIN things better ( 7.5 and fragmenting 7.5 ... or a new type of shotgun shell being created ... explosive shells which do NOT use explosive materials like nitromannitol .